From the Groundlings and “Chelsea Lately” to fashion illustration, textile work and beyond, Carly Kuhn—aka The Cartorialist—may not have set out to become an artist, but she became a brilliant one.
Transcript
Debbie Millman:
If you smush the word sartorialist together with cartoonist and add a dash of artist, what do you get? Well, you get Carly Kuhn, that’s what. Carly Kuhn is The Cartorialist. Her fashion drawings on Instagram got attention, but she was culled out of the entertainment business, where she’d been working, into the life and labor of a full-time artist. She joins me now to talk about the turns in her wonderful career. Carly Kuhn, welcome to Design Matters.
Carly Kuhn:
Thank you for having me.
Debbie Millman:
Carly, is it true you can do a spot-on impression of Janice from “Friends”?
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah. I don’t know how spot-on it is. And I don’t know at what point I declared this, but it’s pretty loud and piercing. So I don’t know if you want to hear it or not in your ear.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, yes. Can you share—
Carly Kuhn:
Oh God.
Debbie Millman:
… the impression please?
Carly Kuhn:
Chandler Bing.
Debbie Millman:
That’s wonderful.
Carly Kuhn:
I hope people stay on after that piercing noise.
Debbie Millman:
Actually, I have to tell you, I can do an impression of Lois from “Family Guy.” And I know that you used to draw “Family Guy”-esque type characters. Peter.
Carly Kuhn:
Oh God, I love it. I feel like there’s a world where they kind of almost blend into one another.
Debbie Millman:
Right. Actually, I think Lois and Janice would be good friends.
Carly Kuhn:
Yes, they would.
Debbie Millman:
… in an alternate universe. Carly, you’re a native New Yorker, but until very recently you lived in Los Angeles, and I understand that your dad played for a long time in a classic rock cover band. Your brother is a filmmaker and a cinematographer. So would it be fair to say you grew up in an artistic family?
Carly Kuhn:
Yes. And I also have a younger brother who is also very artistic, and my mom is very creative, and my dad is actually still rocking out in that cover band. I feel like the combination of my parents and growing up in New York City, where it’s the hub of culture, and fortunate to grow up around theater and fashion, and just people-watching lent itself to being exposed to creativity so early on.
Debbie Millman:
I read that you grew up singing and acting, and even did theater at a sleepaway camp.
Carly Kuhn:
I went to this camp, Point O’Pines, in Upstate New York, and it wasn’t a theater camp, but I think you had to participate in the plays. And I was a little shyer when I was younger. And I think I even, when I went to day camp, I was either told this memory or I have this memory of getting up on stage and crying at an end of this summer performance. And it’s funny because then I would later go on to slowly grow within camp, getting bigger and bigger roles. I think my last three years I was a Doo-Wop Girl in Little Shop of Horrors. And then I was Adelaide in Guys and Dolls. And then I was Jesus in Jesus Christ Superstar, which was performed on parents’ weekend; an uplifting performance not so much, but we grew up going to Broadway musicals, and we’re definitely a very musical family. Both my brothers and my dad are all incredible piano players. I quit when I was in fourth grade, which I still am very sad about that, that I didn’t—
Debbie Millman:
I know, right?
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Anybody that has kids that’s listening to this that want to quit piano, don’t let them.
Carly Kuhn:
I know. But we did … even recently, we were all together and there’s a lot of singing by the piano, which is one of my favorite things.
Debbie Millman:
At the same time while you were doing this, you were also doodling dresses, and thought you might grow up and become a fashion designer. But I actually read that that was just one of the many careers you were imagining happening. What were some of the others?
Carly Kuhn:
I think comedy was always a throughline, watching “SNL” growing up.
Debbie Millman:
So you wanted to be on “SNL.”
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah. And I would later go on to take improv classes at The Groundlings.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah.
Carly Kuhn:
But I don’t know if it was how some people have that set goal. My older brother always knew he wanted to be a writer, director, a filmmaker. And I think for me and my younger brother, we had different interests, but maybe we weave to different things and hobbies and career paths along the way, and then landed in none of those fields.
Debbie Millman:
Right.
Carly Kuhn:
Well, you know, creativity.
Debbie Millman:
Yes.
Carly Kuhn:
But an unexpected one.
Debbie Millman:
You have a really interesting and unusual path. You went to Syracuse University and got your degree in science, television, radio and film. And while you were still in school, you got an internship working on the television show “The View.” So tell us all about that. I need all the juice, all of it.
Carly Kuhn:
I believe it was the summer before I graduated college. And our main job as an intern on “The View” was wrangling the audience members as they were waiting on line, which I believe they overbook usually with these shows for the audience because people don’t show up. But I guess it was a very popular summer, and we would be outside waiting on line and have to turn people away. And people were not happy about that. I got called some names, even though I’m like, “I’m just a lowly intern. I have no power.” But it was that first foray into the world of entertainment, and getting a little bit of a thick skin, and also being exposed to being on a live set, which was exciting. And being an intern, you got to shadow and pop in in all the different departments. And so—
Debbie Millman:
Who were the hosts at the time you were working there?
Carly Kuhn:
I know Whoopi, Elizabeth, Barbara.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, what was that—
Carly Kuhn:
And—
Debbie Millman:
… like? See, that’s where I was wanting to take this. I wasn’t sure if she was still on the show at that point.
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah. Well, I wouldn’t say I personally worked with her, because we didn’t really interact much, but I think it was just that magic of Hollywood or the entertainment industry and seeing these people up close. I think it was really cool to just see all these women. It was very fast-paced. And it was a little bit of an intro into that world, which I ended up working in.
Debbie Millman:
Did you witness any of the on-stage or off-stage debates/fights?
Carly Kuhn:
I feel like I did. My memory is a little murky. I feel like sometimes I wish I remembered things more vividly. So I can’t fully remember, but I have a vague memory of being in the control room and witnessing whether it was fights or even just the chaos of a live show and what’s going on in the control room and being like, “Go to camera one, go grab, no, go to camera two. Oh my God, what are we doing?” Like that chaotic newsroom. So I think that it was something that was cool to see and experience.
Debbie Millman:
After you graduated, you figured you’d continue in television, but you were persuaded to consider joining an agency. And the example was like Ari from “Entourage.” And you got your first official job as an assistant at Creative Artists Agency. So I have three questions about this particular part of your life. How does one get a job at a place like Creative Artists Agency? What kind of work were you doing? And just generally, what was it like?
Carly Kuhn:
When I graduated I never thought I was going to leave New York City at first and go to Los Angeles. But I think I knew I wanted to be in television, and thought maybe scripted, and just knew that there was more opportunity. And I think I had a friend that had moved to LA and was working at an agency and said, “If you don’t know exactly what you want to do in the industry, working at an agency is a really great stepping stone because you get an overview of the whole industry when you work at like a CAA, and they represent writers, directors and actors, and all the different areas. So you’re learning all the different facets of the industry.” And so the way I got there, I think it was a family friend of a friend.
I do think sometimes it becomes who do you know? I think if you go to a certain school and alumni, it may … I think a Syracuse connection got me into the door. And when I interviewed, sometimes people have to start out in the mail room, which is like that famous grunt work. And I interviewed with this younger agent. And she said to me, “You’re the least qualified on paper, but you remind me of a young version of me. So I want to give you a shot.” And I was able to just start on her desk right away. And what you’re doing is essentially “rolling calls,” is the industry term. So you get on the phone, make the calls like, “I have so-and-so for Steven Spielberg.” And they patch you through.
And you’re expected to take notes and you’re adding names to call sheets. And then you’re also managing inbox emails up the wazoo, where you’re setting up meetings. For agents, it’s all about setting up meetings, and lunches, and dinners, and drinks. And it’s really fast-paced. It’s also really great to do, I think, especially in Los Angeles, because LA is a very spread-out city. It can feel very lonely. And the agency world is almost like a grad school for the entertainment industry. Everyone is around the same age, right out of college, or just one of their first jobs and just looking to make friends. And there’s an event or something for anything you can imagine, a birthday, or this, or that, and everyone’s going out together. And that’s how I made my group of friends.
I didn’t really know anyone when I moved to Los Angeles. And going back to your point about “Entourage,” Lloyd was the assistant to Ari. And so I joke, I was that character. Just went from that boss, and then worked on her desk for six months, and then had to go to a more senior desk that was a little more chaotic. And I definitely developed a lot of thick skin from working there, but I think it—weirdly, even though it doesn’t directly on paper—seems like it would lend itself to being an artist today, but I think a lot of those skills of just having to think on your feet, work in a fast-paced environment, maybe helped me later on navigate later things.
Debbie Millman:
At the same time you were doing this, you were also performing at Groundlings, which you mentioned. Groundlings is the legendary improvisation and sketch comedy theater. At that point, were you still hoping to get a gig on “Saturday Night Live,” or Second City, or something that was more standup related?
Carly Kuhn:
I don’t think it was an actual goal. I’m sure deep down there was like, “That wouldn’t be the craziest thing I would turn away if someone’s like, ‘You should be on ‘SNL.’’” But I—
Debbie Millman:
Discovered at last!
Carly Kuhn:
I know. If someone wanted to just put me on, I probably wouldn’t have turned it down, but no, I think it was again why I went to CAA first—I was searching. I think I was always searching for what I wanted to do. And I remember I auditioned in college for an improv group freshman year. I didn’t make it, and that was that. And I definitely enjoyed it. And when this came about, I think I was dating an actor at the time, and he had friends that were doing it. And that was another great way to also meet people.
It’s really fun when, when I got to start Groundlings and I was taking classes, A, to be in a class environment again, when you’ve been out of college even for just two years or a year-and-a-half and you’re feeling lost and you just want a little bit of praise. Once you’re being yelled at at work, it’s good to be like, “Good job, Carly.” But it’s so silly. And I was meeting people that were so different and eclectic. And I feel like I had like a really weird period when I was at Groundlings because everyone’s just doing voices and you’re just picking up everything around you and just soaking it in, soaking in all the weird characters around you.
Debbie Millman:
At that point, though, from what I understand, you had stopped drawing, but you began again—correct me if I’m wrong here—after an unusual experience getting high.
Carly Kuhn:
It’s so funny, because I’m not someone who smokes. I’m so anxious on my own. And just, it was like one of those LA nights in Malibu, a friend had it. I haven’t thought about this in a very long time. I’m blushing because I’m such a like, “Oh my God, I’ve smoked pot.” But my friend who is a little bit more of the earth, and hippy-dippy, and always had a notebook on her … and we were in Malibu, had that experience, and it wasn’t anything that crazy. It was probably not even anything, but yeah, it reopened up that creativity inside me.
Like you said, I hadn’t really drawn in a while and I just started doing these little doodles in her notebook, and it then started up again while I was still at CAA. I just would draw friends on their birthdays, then slowly their bosses would see it and they’d be like, “Oh, that looks like a weird Tim Burton character. Can you do me?” But I just think I was excited. It was something that I rediscovered, but didn’t really know what it was going to become. It was just, as I said, that continuous path of searching to wanting to be more creative.
Debbie Millman:
At this point, you began working for Chelsea Handler on her television show “Chelsea Lately.” You started as an associate producer and then as management of development and production at Chelsea’s production company. But you were continuing to draw and began sketching daily. When did you begin to start thinking that this could be something more than just a daily artistic practice, but the possibilities of a career?
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah. When Instagram came along, I remember sitting at a dinner table with a friend, and I think I had maybe done a drawing of her or something. And she was like, “You should start an Instagram account.” I was like, “OK. I’ll go for it.” Again, I didn’t really know what was going to happen, but I was doing these drawings. Initially I started just drawing my little weird Tim Burton–esque characters. And then I guess just what was on Instagram at the time, in the beginning, it was a lot of fashion photography, fashion bloggers, street style. And it just—organically, I shifted from just drawing the little characters in my mind to, I would see an image and just feel inclined to interpret it in my style, but I would just credit who I would draw, and say, “Inspired by so-and-so.” And at the time I think I even thought Instagram was just like a photo-editing app. I didn’t know it was this public form of expression.
Debbie Millman:
Interestingly, I decided to go back to your first post. So I scrolled all the way back.
Carly Kuhn:
Oh my.
Debbie Millman:
You posted your first image on Jan. 29, 2014. When I did that, I started to look at mine, too. And I was so bad at Instagram at the beginning that my first image is in the wrong direction. I didn’t know how to rotate.
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah. I—
Debbie Millman:
And so it’s in the wrong direction. But your first post was a black-and-white illustration of a pixie girl inspired by a Jan. 14, 2014, post on the website Sartorialist. So talk a little bit, if you remember, about that first post.
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah. I don’t know if I can place myself in that—
Debbie Millman:
She almost—
Carly Kuhn:
… moment.
Debbie Millman:
… looks like Edie from Andy Warhol’s days, Edie Sedgwick.
Carly Kuhn:
I don’t fully remember. I think what I remember is that someone, one of my friends, was like, “I can’t believe you’re putting your art out there for people to judge you.” And I, at the time, was in an improv group that would perform in this random hole in the wall on Melrose. I think it was called Neon Venus. And maybe we would have four or five people there. Usually there were significant others, maybe a little bit more. But that was so vulnerable and scary of your face in front of other people’s face, being like, “You’re at a grocery store you’re bumping into someone you haven’t seen in 10 years. Go.” That was so scary.
So in a way I do feel like it was exciting to just be able to do something creative and put it out there, and I didn’t have my name on my account for, I don’t know how long. I don’t know if it was because I was … eventually, while I was still at “Chelsea Lately,” I still didn’t have my name on The Cartorialist, because again, it’s such a weird thing, and when you’re drawing and you’re working in comedy, you don’t want to be like, “Hey guys, I draw on the side, check it out.” You know?
Debbie Millman:
Right.
Carly Kuhn:
And—
Debbie Millman:
Side hustle, yeah.
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah. So I think in that way it was just, I do have a memory of it just being fun and exciting that I stumbled upon this new, or old-new, creativity again. And I do think that’s why I say, like, I think the improv in Groundlings allowed me—even though you don’t think improv Groundlings to artists is a normal path—but I think it gave me that confidence to put myself out there.
Debbie Millman:
How did you come up with the name Cartorialist?
Carly Kuhn:
I think it was that the world was fashion, and sartorial, and Sartorialist. And then I had this kind of cartoon quality to my work. And then my name being Carly, that like ‘C’ sound. I think that I just blended the words together of just sartorial, cartoon and Carly. And they had a baby, and it became The Cartorialist. And in hindsight it’s great, but also I’m like, “Ugh, it’s hard for people to say and spell.” But I do, I think that there’s something that people get a sense of the two worlds combined.
Debbie Millman:
Carly, while you were in college, you took only one fashion illustration class. Looking at your early work, it’s really well developed, and you have a voice and a style that’s completely unique. How did that happen without any training or consistent practice through your life at that point?
Carly Kuhn:
Well, thank you, first of all. I think that it really was the product of repetition in a weird way. I would see an image, and draw something, and do that almost every day as just having something as a creative outlet, and just trying to stick to something every day. And I even remember when I started out, I would sometimes use pencil because I didn’t want to mess up. Once I start doing it a little bit more on Instagram, and maybe people were starting to recognize it, then you get scared, and I would draw an image and use pencil, and then go over it in pen. And I felt like I had these mistakes within my art early on and wasn’t sure if people liked that. And there were these flaws within my art that I realized that that’s what actually people gravitated towards, these perfectly imperfect lines.
And I nixed using a pencil. I like drawing with pen because if there’s a line out of place on a hand, or a leg’s a little wonky, or an eye is not in the right place, I eventually leaned into that. And I think it was only because I just started. I was doing it every single day, a little bit every day. And when people were like, “Oh, how did you find your style? Or how did you get good?” And I say, “It’s not about getting good. It’s about becoming confident in what you’re doing.” Maybe this person over there, this fashion illustrator, was drawing the perfect model on a runway. And I liked drawing the people backstage, seeing the weird angles, and doing it, and finding myself gravitating to the things that were a little weird, a little bit off.
Debbie Millman:
You have such a unique eye. I feel like there’s an ease to your lines that is so unique. It doesn’t feel like there’s tension in the drawing, or struggle. It just feels very natural and almost instantly birthed.
Carly Kuhn:
Thank you. I think there’s that improv side of things, too. “They say yes, and …” is this like motto, and improv where you’re just supposed to … if someone throws you a line, no pun intended, they say something to you, and you’re supposed to, “Yes. And we then went to the park.” Instead of saying, “No, it happened this way.” And I feel like, weirdly, that’s how I approach my art, very improvisational. I don’t usually plan out what I’m doing. I do maybe have a stack of notebooks of failed drawings, because as I said, I like to draw with pen, and because I don’t feel like I get the same quality of line when I’m drawing with pencil, unless I’m doing something different and that’s the style. But I still, even with pencil, don’t usually erase. And I think that there’s magic that can come when you’re just going and you’re not planning it out. Even with murals that I later did, that can be a little scary on a wall and not planning it out.
Debbie Millman:
On Oct. 8, 2014, you did an illustration featuring Sarah Jessica Parker sitting on the stoop of the brownstone that she lives in in the TV show “Sex and the City.” She’s sitting on a stoop. You can’t really see her face, but she’s trying on shoes. What happened after you posted this image?
Carly Kuhn:
I saw the image. And at the time, Instagram was that it was instant and it was chronological. And I remember I drew the drawing and I think I posted it under an hour from when she posted the photo. And I was sitting at lunch later that afternoon and I looked down at my phone, and I get a text from my older brother, Joey. And it says, “OMG, SJP.” And I was like, “What? Oh my God.” And she had reposted my drawing and was just like, “Wow, that was quick. Love it. X, SJP.” And the New Yorker girl inside of me just was like, “Oh my God.” You know.
Debbie Millman:
Any girl anywhere.
Carly Kuhn:
Anywhere, yeah. It was just a shocking moment. I didn’t really know what was going to come of it. But it really did kick off like a next round of things that started to happen, all organically through Instagram, and just showed me the power of that platform.
Debbie Millman:
After the Sarah Jessica Parker repost, you started to get your first requests and commissions. One opportunity that came in was from Prada. Talk about what you did for them.
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah. That was all through Instagram. I remember I just got a blind email. You set these emails and wait for something to come in. You email yourself a couple of times, like, “Just want to make sure it—”
Debbie Millman:
Test.
Carly Kuhn:
“… works.” Yeah. Testing. And I remember I got this email, and it was for a digital sunglasses campaign called Prada Raw. And they were tapping six fashion illustrators, or just art illustrators, to interpret the line of sunglasses. And they were going to pair us with an animation house, and they were going to turn it into an animation. And they had it all up on this website, and it was going to be this big thing. And a friend’s significant other came in to help negotiate for me, because I was just like, “I don’t know what I’m supposed to do.”
And let me tell you, it wasn’t all roses, like, “I did this Prada Raw campaign. It was great.” It was dealing, A, with people in Italy, so there was a delay. I didn’t really know what I was doing. And I did these drawings, and I remember I turned it in, and the guy was like, “These actually aren’t what we thought you were going to be able to produce for us. You’ll get paid, but we’re not going to use it.” And I was like, “Let me try again. I want to make this work.” I didn’t want to just give up. And you had to draw 50 different images, slightly different from each image, because it’s animation. And a lot of the other illustrators worked on computer. I did everything by hand.
So I had to redo everything by hand, but again, I just knew the opportunity was such a big opportunity and they stuck with me, and it ended up happening. So it was an early lesson, in hindsight, of just saying yes to stuff and then figuring it out along the way or just learning along the way, even though I was terrified by the ask at the time.
Debbie Millman:
As commissions continued to come in, you ultimately felt comfortable enough to leave your day job with Chelsea Handler and pursue a career as an artist and an illustrator, which is quite astonishing, given the notion that you were not ever planning to do this.
Carly Kuhn:
Right, yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Was it a hard decision for you to make? Were you nervous? Were you worried about surviving, continuing to get jobs, continuing to be the it-girl?
Carly Kuhn:
The thing that was interesting was a lot of that happened while I was still at “Chelsea.” At the time, my boss, he said, “We’re going to be going on a hiatus.” Which, in television, some shows go on a two-month hiatus and then come back. And it was February. And he said, “We’re going to go on a hiatus, but we want you to come work for us back again in May, as a producer on this show.” So that was a point that I told them, I was like, “I have this Instagram. And it’s been doing this thing.” And then that’s when they pulled it up in the room, they’re like, “Who are you? What is this double life you’ve been living?” But it was a great way that I didn’t have to make the decision to quit.
I was actually getting paid through that and was able to have it be like a test, like, “Should I do this? And if not, after a few months I could always go back to this job.” But I think because I was open to saying “yes” to a lot of different things and just not being so one-path oriented, if that makes sense, saying like, “I only want to try and be in galleries.” Or, “I only want to try to be a New Yorker cartoonist.” I think because it was open, that allowed me, in a way, to be more open to a lot of different kinds of jobs.
Debbie Millman:
You’ve written about how, when this new career path all started to come together, people felt free to offer you all sorts of advice about how to run your business. Some people felt you should only make originals and not sell prints. Others thought you should partner with a gallery right away. Others thought you should make greeting cards. How do you make sense of all the advice and ultimately forge a path of your own?
Carly Kuhn:
I think it’s still a constant struggle. I think because I didn’t go to art school and this wasn’t an intended path, I had definitely an insecurity of “where do I fit in?” I didn’t know if I fully felt like I wanted to go that commercial route and just start doing greeting cards. But I also didn’t really feel like I was someone who could be in a gallery or an art gallery. And I think it just became a lot of trial and error. And what presented itself, I think I got connected to someone at the time who was doing Absolut Art, which is another online art platform. So that was, I think, the first art prints that I ended up doing. And eventually I would create my own art prints. But it’s hard to say how to navigate it because I still feel like I’m still navigating it.
And I do think that I sometimes still get worried or I’ve been paralyzed by, “If I do this, am I not going to be able to do this?” Or, “If I do this, am I going to get stuck in this world?” And I think I felt that way within the fashion illustration world that I got categorized into in the beginning. I didn’t view myself as a fashion illustrator, but it also tied to Instagram illustrator. That was another kind of insecurity that crept up, because why can’t you just be called an artist? But even, and now today, I’m like, “But why is that a bad thing, to be called this or that?” Again, I think it was because I didn’t necessarily ever view myself as an artist or that to claim that word, and it wasn’t my intended path. That’s I think what has made that struggle of “where do I want to go or what world am I allowed to go into?”
Debbie Millman:
You said that at the time you were also bothered by the term “fashion illustrator.” Why did that bother you?
Carly Kuhn:
Being an artist and a creative is also so tied to your identity and where you are in your life. And I feel like I was in my late 20s, going through some life changes, relationships and everything. And I just think my identity, I didn’t really know who I was. And I also, in the beginning only drew fashion illustration drawings or fashion-inspired drawings and nothing else on the page. I didn’t share photos of myself. I didn’t share inspiration photos. And I didn’t really feel like I was coming through. I remember when I met a friend in person after she had followed me, and she said, “I just assumed you were this fashion girl that did her hair, and always had a full thing of makeup on, and would wear these amazing dresses.” And that’s not who I am.
I wanted to explore more of who I was. And even though I am not my art, it does feel like they’re connected. And then, on the other hand, I think because I discovered this artistic side of myself later, I was just at the beginning of it. And so I didn’t want to be put in a box if I wanted to do something completely different. And I think that’s what happens with Instagram. And my career did happen in front of people, live. Real time, they’re seeing me try new things. And so I felt kind of constricted by what, “oh, well people started following me or liking my work because I drew the red dress. So I have to continue to draw the red dress.” And I think that’s a struggle that a lot of creatives probably have even today that build something on a social media platform. Like, “If I shift the direction of what I’m sharing, are they going to stick around?” But you also want to not just do things for other people. You want to do it for yourself, but it is this line to have to balance.
Debbie Millman:
How do you manage that?
Carly Kuhn:
I think it really just has to do with growth and time. I think it really, where I am today, is very different from that. I think it’s also because I feel confident in who I am as a person, too, and where I am in my life. So, weirdly, I think it’s getting older, having more experiences, working on yourself, and getting to a good place where you feel confident in yourself, so you’ll lean into what you want to create versus what you think other people want to create.
And usually that’s what people respond to. And people will come along that journey with you. I think when I started doing these faces, it was kind of a response to me feeling stuck in this one world, in fashion, this feeling, like, “OK, there’s another fashion week coming up. People are expecting me to draw this. But I don’t feel creatively inspired to draw that.” And that’s where the one-line technique came into play. It was almost meditative for me and a way to break out of this anxiety of feeling like I had to do something, I had to draw off of an image. Now I could just put pen to paper, not feel like it has to look a certain way, try something different. And it was a self-soothing exercise that morphed into then a different kind of style. And people came along the ride with it, and some people didn’t, and that’s fine.
Debbie Millman:
Do you get a lot of feedback from your followers and fans?
Carly Kuhn:
I’m lucky. I feel like I don’t have too many haters, but once in a blue moon, I remember, I think at the height of when things were going on, I remember someone said, “I like art, but this isn’t art.”
Debbie Millman:
Oh, please.
Carly Kuhn:
Things like that. And I think now I obviously am able to laugh at it and be like, “They probably … maybe they’re having a bad day.” But I think it is really exciting, too, when people say, “Oh my God.” I’ve had certain drawings where I’ve incorporated the text into … that’s just maybe as simple as like, “Can I have a hug?” And I’ve had friends reach out to me and say, like, “This really turned my day around.” Which is the most incredible thing. Or a stranger DM that to me, or comment. So I feel like there’s more positive feedback that has come through the social media platform that is really special, that something as simple as a little drawing with just, like, “I love you.” Or, “I’m thinking of you.” Or whatever it is, or even just the image itself, how it can impact someone’s life, is pretty cool.
Debbie Millman:
In addition to Prada and Absolut, you’ve since been commissioned by Elle magazine, Bombay Sapphire, the jewelry brand Alexis Bittar, Capital Records, and more. How do you get most of your clients now?
Carly Kuhn:
It really has been through Instagram. I don’t know a percentage, but I would say the majority of all of those you named, and what has continued to happen, has been through Instagram. It’s just a simple either DM or they email me, which is crazy.
Debbie Millman:
You’re also working, making fine art. And you do sell prints now. Do you have different methodologies in how you approach working for a client or working for yourself?
Carly Kuhn:
For commissions on the more traditional art side of things, they tend to be more the faces that are a little bit more abstract. So when it’s that, it’s a little bit more of the trust within me as the artist that the person that’s commissioning me knows this style is a little bit more free-form. I’ve definitely limited the kind of commission work that I’ve taken on now. And that’s just from experience, and learning, and saying “yes” to a lot in the beginning, to be able to say “no” now to commission work that I don’t necessarily think is what I think is my best work or what I enjoy doing. I don’t know if that answers the question.
Debbie Millman:
Yeah. You’ve also moved into home furnishings and installations. How different is it for you moving from two dimensions to three?
Carly Kuhn:
When I switched from the digital page, to then the page to installations, to then textiles, that was an exciting transition because I think there’s a lot more room to play when you work in design and textiles. And I remember when I started creating wallpaper, what maybe was my original drawing was maybe a simple figure on a page, on a white blank page. When you put that into a pattern, or a repeat pattern, or you add color … typically my work was a lot of black and white. And I feel like I unleashed this, or discovered a different side of my style, when I was designing more for textile or wall coverings, because it is a different medium. It’s being viewed in a different way. You can take risks a little bit more because maybe a piece of art on a wall is a very specific thing.
And I really have found this love for design, and home, and textile. And so I’m working on launching a design studio hopefully by the end of the year, which is really going to be wall coverings and textiles, and focus on that, and still pick and choose the things that I do. And I’ll still always share, because it’s still … the core of what I’m doing are these drawings. And I just really have a love for being able to play a little bit more and have things be within the home. So that’s something that’s exciting.
Debbie Millman:
When do you officially launch? Are you doing this on your own? Are you partnering with a home furnishings manufacturer? Tell us everything about this. I think I’m getting a scoop.
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah. I am working with a company that will be actually producing the wall coverings and textiles. And they’re based out of Brooklyn. So they’ll be actually creating it, but it will be something I’m doing on my own. I want to test it out, and explore, and see where it goes. And I think I can have the control over it. And I feel like because I have an audience of people that have already expressed interest in it, and I had wallpaper for a hot second, and it was very well received. So I think it will be good to be able to put it out there on my own. And I’m hoping by fall, winter, to put it out there.
Debbie Millman:
That’s really exciting, Carly. Will it be under the name The Cartorialist, or your name?
Carly Kuhn:
I think it will be Cartorialist Studio.
Debbie Millman:
Congratulations on this super exciting news. It’s really quite—
Carly Kuhn:
Thank you.
Debbie Millman:
… wondrous to watch the path of your career. Carly, the last thing I want to talk with you about is your recent wedding, and your move back to the East Coast. So first the nuptials. I understand you got your marriage license at the Honda Civic Center in Anaheim. How glamorous.
Carly Kuhn:
Super sexy.
Debbie Millman:
And you were both wearing sweatpants, from what I understand.
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah. We got engaged, actually, the weekend of lockdown in New York City, Central Park. It was Friday the 13th, March 13.
Debbie Millman:
Oh, wow. A day before the lockdown, yeah.
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah. Real time, poor Danny, already having the anxiety of having to propose or not having to, the anxiety of proposing. And meanwhile, the world is going crazy. We were supposed to have an engagement party, and last minute canceled. But the two families got to be together, and we sang by the piano in very Kuhn-Matz fashion. The most important thing for Danny was that his grandma would be able to be there. So we brought the wedding to grandma. We did the marriage license at the Honda Civic Center, but we were lucky to just do just our two families in Boca at grandma’s house, at Boo-boo’s house. And—
Debbie Millman:
In Boca? Yeah.
Carly Kuhn:
In Boca, in December. And my younger brother, Jake, is a tech wizard and he works in events. And so we didn’t do the Zoom wedding. We actually did a YouTube link. And it was cool because friends and family were watching from all over with their kids, with their parents, and it was in Florida. And then we came back to LA. And we didn’t think we would ever be moving. But as we were thinking about starting a family, Danny’s from Michigan, I’m from New York. And both of our families spend time a lot in Florida. And we decided as we start that next chapter, we want to be closer to family. And that was really the main reason for moving. So moving to Miami, staying in a warm weather climate. We’ll have to adjust to the humidity, but we’ll get through it.
Debbie Millman:
I saw on Instagram that you designed your own wedding invitations. How was that for you? Cobbler and shoes kind of thing?
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah. I think there’s an expectation with certain things that I do, like, “Oh, are you going to do the drawing for this?” But for this case, I did want to do it. It felt special. And especially because it wasn’t with everyone getting to send out a little … I still sent out a paperless post with the drawing on it. And it had that New Yorker style, which felt like us. So it was sweet. And no one was telling me, like, “Oh, can you make these edits?” I got to just do what I wanted.
Debbie Millman:
That’s the nice thing about working for oneself, right?
Carly Kuhn:
Yeah.
Debbie Millman:
Do you anticipate this move to Florida influencing the direction of your practice at all? Is this where you’re going to open up an in-person studio? How do you see the work being any different, if at all?
Carly Kuhn:
I think that the reason I decided to want to launch this studio was because moving, I don’t really know where we’re going to live. We’ll probably be in an apartment or condo for a little bit. Whereas in LA I thought we were maybe going to be in a house and starting a family. I wanted to have something that not felt like a little bit more traditional, but be able to focus on something. And that one of the things that I realized that I love about what I do, of all the different kinds of things, is being able to draw anywhere. I think with design, like wall coverings and textiles, and moving to this new city, I’m able to do that in whatever type of space that I’m in. So if it’s not a bigger space, that’s OK. And I’m open to seeing how I’m influenced by Miami. It will feel very different. I’m excited about that because I definitely feel like my art and home design meld together. So I’m excited to be able to explore a new city and welcome the new inspiration that will probably come about.
Debbie Millman:
Well, I can’t wait to see what you do next. Carly Kuhn, thank you so much for sharing so much about your life and the way you work. And thank you for joining me today on Design Matters.
Carly Kuhn:
Thank you so much for having me.
Debbie Millman:
You can see more of Carly Kuhn’s work @thecartorialist on Instagram and read more about everything she does, and I’m sure her upcoming studio, at cartorialist.com. This is the 17th year we’ve been podcasting Design Matters, and I’d like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference, we can make a difference, or we can do both. I’m Debbie Millman, and I look forward to talking with you again soon.